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Gay Sex in Straight Marriages

Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:16 AM EDT
politics, sex, gay, christianity, bible, gay-marriage
By Rainmaker

Personally, I find that this an abomination. It does not mean I want to outlaw it. Frogs can have sex. I just don't want to watch it. From a convenient distance I can even see the beauty in it, since it is something they do in celebration of life.

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If you assume the position that gay sex is wrong, because it cannot lead to reproduction, non-reproductive sex between heterosexuals must also be considered a perversion of the purpose of sexuality.

In the debate about Proposition 8 and the various states legislating gay marriage there is one discussion, which has not really been explored in depth, so to speak. It is the question of whether or not non-reproductive sex in straight marriages should be considered gay.

In the old days "gay" would mean "happy" or "easy-going", and there's probably some cultural significance to the fact that the term today is used to describe homosexuals, particularly male homosexuals, and widely accepted in the... well, gay communities.

The reason it makes sense is that when homosexuality began to become mainstreamed in Western culture - after being ostracized since the Christening of Rome - the homosexuals were happy. They celebrated coming out of the closet, often wearing flamboyant clothing and partying late, kind of like all young people do today.

So, they were "gay", and at least that's a more flattering term than the one it replaced, "queer", which means something strange or twisted.

That was just some background.

Hard on homosexuals

A little more background to explain why the Christian churches are radically opposed to homosexual practices, particularly same sex marriage: The Bible undeniably contains some harsh language about homosexuality.

It's called the infamous six clobber passages.

Even if modern translations and interpretations somewhat differ from the fundamentalist interpretations - in condoning consensual homosexuality and narrowing the condemnation to pedophilia, rape and male prostitution in the temple (never have gay sex for money in a temple!) - these passages are likely to haunt churches and the political discourse for a long time to come.

The most famous one, Leviticus 18:22, in the King James Version is translated:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Abomination means it is an eyesore; it's ugly or repulsive. It's not much more than saying: "Don't do it, because I don't like it". Of course, Christians can claim it is in the Bible because God does not like it, which automatically raises the fundamentally aesthetic verdict to a verdict of aesthetic fundamentalism.

In defense of gay sex

As a man with a fundamentally woman-oriented sex drive I find it odd to defend gay sex against accusations of immorality.

It is, however, a matter of public concern for homosexuals to reach the critical benchmark of public acceptance through legislation, because it consolidates tolerance of alternative sexual identities and secures the gay communities against discrimination and persecution.

So, let me try to explain why it does not make sense to condemn gay sex. I can understand that it is aesthetically displeasing to those who are not into it. As a man I find that imagery of two women being intimate is arousing, while intimacy between two men looks annoyingly weird and unaesthetic.

I admit that, but it doesn't mean I am against it. I also do not like to look at people in latex outfits. It just looks stupid to me. I do like some role playing and domination games and soft bondage; it's just the lame outfits that bother me.

But the fundamental argument against gay sex coming from Christians is that it is wrong, even if it is not in your face... pardon the pun.

It is, as they used to say, "against nature" or unnatural. But why, in our modern, high technological society, should something being unnatural automatically be considered immoral? Very few would, after all, be able to sustain their lives in a "natural environment" without artificial means.

Should only straight people be gay?

I am reminded of an anecdote about James Joyce who allegedly convinced his wife to have sex "against nature", which was what led me to think that there must be scores of straight couples out there having "gay sex".

What I mean is: Lots of straight couples, even married ones, have oral sex and anal sex, which is basically the same type of sex one must assume gay people have. Obviously, the only type of sex gays and lesbians cannot have, is penis to vagina sex.

Also, many straight couples have recreational sex or sex for fun, which even if it is penis to vagina sex, is somewhat similar to gay sex, because it does not lead to reproduction.

It is also gay in the ancient sense of the word, before it was sexualized, as it makes people happy.

If you assume the position, so to speak, that gay sex is wrong, because it cannot lead to reproduction, non-reproductive sex between heterosexuals must also be considered a perversion of the purpose of sexuality.

Coming out of the straight closet

So, my questions at this point are:

• How many of you who are married or have been married have practiced oral sex or anal sex in wedlock?

• Do any of you straight people, married or not, feel that oral sex and anal sex is wrong or demeaning for a straight couple?

• Are there any Christian who can explain in simple terms of common ethics why gay sex is to be considered morally wrong?

• Is it just a question of aesthetic repulsion or blind obedience to the Bible / specific translations and interpretations of the Bible?

• The Bible even states that a man must not sleep with a woman during her period. Has anybody violated this command?

How sexy are Christian marriages?

I am sure some will have a quibble with the headline, arguing it is per definition not "gay" if it is "straight."

In this case I would like to ask if recreational sex between spouses isn't even more gay, when the homosexuals are excluded from doing it, since it does send the signal that all the fun is for heterosexuals...?

In a way it turns the picture upside down, making life rather dull for homosexuals if they accepted the verdict, which of course I would not expect them to, while heterosexuals become the "gay community" in the sense that they can have anal sex, oral sex, sex with toys and domination games all they like, without being condemned.

The Bible does not say anything about what husbands and wives can do to each other, as long as it is consensual.

With the widespread practice of all types of sex even in wedlock, which is probably a phenomenon that penetrates deep into the religious communities (again, pardon the pun), it seems profoundly unfair that homosexuality is considered a perversion.

Why is it so important for society and for God to prevent people from having sex with the same gender?

Ominous silence on child abuse

I also always wondered why there is a ban against incest in the Bible, which is perfectly rational, but nothing about pedophilia or even the slightest hint at the responsibility of grownups to prevent sexual abuse of children?

It's hardly a new concept, and we know it was practiced in the day and age of the New Testament authors.

These days we hear a multitude of reports about institutionalized child rape in churches, particularly the Catholic Church... could it be a consequence of the Bible's ominous silence on child abuse?

I do not really expect anyone to be able to answer the last question, but I sure look forward to responses to the other ones.

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  • Groups: Centervine, Free Thinkers, The Open Closet
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  • Public Discussion (39)
Rainmaker

Even if I do crack a joke here and there, I am quite serious about the matter. I really want to hear your opinion, and please feel free to also share your stories. You can be XXX, and I will not delete it.

So, in brief... hrem... shoot...

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:35 AM EDT
dcstone01

Answered in order....yes, no, I don't consider it morally wrong to express 'God given love' to a person of opposite or same sex, I think its both, yes, and imho the 'church' has of control issues.

I linked the article to 'Centervine', 'Free Thinkers', and 'The Open Closet' groups...

Oh, as a Californian I noticed your wording in the first line...It is Proposition 8 not Proposal....(different meanings altogether)

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:05 AM EDT
Rainmaker

Thanks for correcting my error and for linking it to groups, dcstone. I knew the name - just wrote the article too quickly, I guess.

  • 6 votes
#1.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:09 AM EDT
Reply
Dawn-345105

". Obviously, the only type of sex gays and lesbians cannot have, is penis to vagina sex."

actually Rainmaker....we can... lol... I have four differant types of strap-ons :) wellnot me per say...my partner does ...lol..shes the one with penis envy not me lol

  • 8 votes
Reply#2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:12 AM EDT
Rainmaker

Uhm... he... I knew that too, Dawn. As an organic male I just discriminated against strap-ons a bit, excluding them from the authentic penis category. Fortunately these toys are not smart enough to have an NGO yet, so I will count on getting away with it ^~

  • 7 votes
#2.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:22 AM EDT
Dawn-345105

LOL umm totally understand, but just to let you know you can also mold your own your penis now adays..:) and sell :) and their dishwasher safe...:O

  • 10 votes
#2.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:33 AM EDT
bonos_rama

"Honey, do these pancakes taste a little funny?"

" Well, maybe...they were in the dishwasher with King Dong..."

:)

  • 5 votes
#2.3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:58 AM EDT
Reply
Captain Amazing

If everyone in the world had sex for the sole purpose of procreation, it would be a sad world indeed, my friends.

  • 11 votes
Reply#3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:31 AM EDT
dcstone01

Very true....

  • 8 votes
#3.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:32 AM EDT
Dawn-345105

ohh how true captain !! :)

  • 8 votes
#3.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:34 AM EDT
Reply
Dennis P. McCannDeleted
MizDelight

I'm not sure what to think of this article. I've had to change my view on homosexuality when I discovered two of my relatives were gay. I've went out of my way not to view their sexual pratices because even though I understand their plight, my mind rejects visuals. I don't wonder what sex is like for other straight couples, why would I wonder about same sex relations? To me a person who does have that curiosity, must be contemplating taking a walk on the wild side. I understand since more states are adopting same-sex marriages, this could arouse some curiosity, but I've never dare to go down that trail. Interesting article, and it gives me something to mull over for a couple of days. Non-reproductive sex is equilvalent to gay sex hmmmm.......

  • 7 votes
Reply#5 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:19 AM EDT
Rainmaker

Non-reproductive sex is equilvalent to gay sex hmmmm

MizDelight, only if you accept the premise set for the rationalistic argument against homosexuality.

I've had to change my view on homosexuality when I discovered two of my relatives were gay.

I am glad to hear you were able to.

I don't wonder what sex is like for other straight couples, why would I wonder about same sex relations?

Most people are a little curious, I think. It's only natural. There's lots of books, movies, articles and TV about it, at least. My latest seeded article about a marital sex experiment drew lots of votes and comments.

To me a person who does have that curiosity, must be contemplating taking a walk on the wild side.

He he... the classical "gay by association" paranoia. I suspect this mechanism makes a lot more people homophobic, because it's like... if you display any interest in it, you must be bi-curious at the very least.

It's what makes it a taboo, you know, a "no go" area, where you could be struck by the wrath of gods (in this case by public contempt) if you venture into it... so, you see, the homophobia and tabooization reinforces each other, right?

The first step to overcome that trap, I think, is already taken with the "I have plenty of gay friends" admission. You know, you can know them and not be gay. It's not infectious. The admission shows that tolerance, at least, has become the dominant view, rather than repulsion or condemnation.

You can probably thank The L Word and pop culture preceding this show for that.

Next step, I think, is to be able to talk about. You know, you can say: "...I've never dare to go down that trail" and it's all okay. Nobody thinks you are gay, and if they do, nobody cares, and if you happened to be, that would be okay as well (not that I think you are :)

But I know it is still a risk filled subject to many. This article is basically a lightning conducter providing grounding by making the topic less dangerously charged.

Thanks for reading and taking the time to respond, MD.

  • 9 votes
#5.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:33 AM EDT
MizDelight

Very true Rainmaker:

I thought I had the problem worked out in my head until I saw 2 women kiss. It was then that I realized that I still have some work to do. I love my relatives very much and I do not want to lose them because of my issues. Your article is though provoking, but as far as me being curious........I've got enough natural problems without creating more for myself. I thought I had examined every aspect of homosexuality until I read your article. I really must mull this over for awhile. But I do appreciate your response.

  • 7 votes
#5.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:57 AM EDT
Reply
Pittsburgh Dan

Every now and then I hit a well-reasoned, thought-provoking article on the 'vine that reminds me what an amazing forum this can be.

It's the "absence of malice" approach in this piece I like the most--if more of us on both "sides" of the plate would just take a deep breath and have dialogues rather than rants, we'd be closer to simple understanding and tolerance of all lifestyles and beliefs.

And in that understanding lay the first seeds of true justice--an understanding and mutual respect that wouldn't require legislation to "make it real."

Looking forward to coming back to this one.

  • 8 votes
Reply#6 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:25 AM EDT
Rainmaker

Thanks Dan,

I do my best to keep it low on malice. You may be able to get a speed boost applying controversy, but you get better mileage and performance out of low vitriolic fuel.

  • 4 votes
#6.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
Reply
American Spirit

I just shake my head when I read comments from homophobes against anal sex. I've yet to meet an "average all-American male hetrosexual" who didn't adore it.

  • 6 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:08 AM EDT
Rainmaker

Interesting. 3 questions:

I've yet to meet an "average all-American male hetrosexual" who didn't adore it.

Giving or taking?

Are you male or female?

Gay or straight?

  • 3 votes
#7.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
American Spirit

Giving usually; female; straight.

  • 4 votes
#7.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
Reply
JustDucki

Thought provoking and very well done!

Personally, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. In answer to your questions -

Yes

No

I'm not a Christian, I can't answer #3

Or 4

And that's why we invented showers.

I saw a sign in the French Quarter of New Orleans that read "Relax people - It's just sex" What more needs to be said?

  • 7 votes
Reply#8 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
Rainmaker

Thanks DMW,

I also had trouble seeing what the fuss was all about, because I live in Denmark where gay marriage is already legalized. Now and then some sexually frustrated gay bashers will freak out and make it to the front page, and I figure some parents still are not too delighted when their kids come home and tell them their partner has the same equipment, but generally homosexuality is accepted.

I think, in the old days when these religions were forged, procreation was a major priority - you know, the survival of the tribe. A lot of water has run under the bridge since then: Prevention was invented, overpopulation exploded. Things are different, so it is only natural that our attitudes change too.

  • 6 votes
#8.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:23 PM EDT
JustDucki

procreation was a major priority - you know, the survival of the tribe.

So true. We're a tribe that better change the beat of that tune though and leave the 'be fruitful and multiply' mentallity behind us or the future will be none too bright. Our survival now depends on curbing, not encouraging, reproduction.

  • 3 votes
#8.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:20 PM EDT
Reply
Celestina

It's a fair point you have here, Rainmaker. It always irks me a bit when people start going on about how the purpose of marriage is for procreation, when plenty of married couples never breed, and I have known quite a few happy, healthy kids whose parents never married. Your conclusions build on that nicely.

Incidentally, I recently discovered a website which is dedicated to Christian sex products (don't ask me how I got there, it's a long story). So I think it's safe to say that Christians are not foregoing interesting sex for fear of making God mad.

  • 6 votes
Reply#9 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
dcstone01

Oh my, what nice 'toys'....

  • 3 votes
#9.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:38 AM EDT
sorrelen

My parents were divorced when I was young and I am the better for it. Not only were my parents happier not being married but I wasn't forced to live in a home with unhappy people. I am very glad my mom left my dad.

Many married couples can't even have children so that argument irks me also.

  • 2 votes
#9.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
dcstone01

Same here sorrelen, my parents divorced when I was young. Dad went on to two more marriages and divorces, he kind've had that 'if at first you don't succeed try, try again' attitude, unfortunately.. They were too young to marry and have kids...I waited for both myself. (not that everything has been perfect, but at least we knew what we were getting into)

  • 3 votes
#9.3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
sorrelen

I have waited also. I will be 31 on my wedding date and my fiance 30. Neither of us were in a relationship for around 4 years prior to getting together and so we had no baggage to bring with us. It has been an amazingly easy and fun experience so far. I will be 32 when the thought of kids comes along so I feel I am more ready and prepared for the world we face today.

My personal belief is that gay people can just as well provide a great home for the many children out there who don't have anyone. Besides with all the options of getting pregnant without sex these days the old adage of marriage just for procreation kinda goes out the window...

  • 4 votes
#9.4 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
Rainmaker

He he, interesting link, Celestina. Thanks for providing. It does blow a hole in some myths about Christians, I think. At least I had a prejudice about Christian marriages removed right then and there. I am glad they enjoy each other.

Good point with the marriage+no children or no marriage+children equation. I think it also serves to defuse the tension some, possibly on both sides, making it easier for gay couples to accept some local, random and individual variations in standards of equality.

My personal belief is that gay people can just as well provide a great home for the many children out there who don't have anyone.

Thank you, sorrelen. Good point. I have yet to figure out if I completely agree. As a lifestyle choice I can respect it, but when it comes to raising children I have some reservations, not about the competence, but about social standards. Is it unfair to fear for stigmatization of kids? I am adopted myself, and I know some donor countries do not want gay couples to adopt, because these countries tend to be traditionalist.

But thanks for raising the topic. I will give it some thought.

Besides with all the options of getting pregnant without sex these days the old adage of marriage just for procreation kinda goes out the window...

Also a fine point: Artificial insemination. Again, something artificial, which helps parents who want to have children. You can hardly argue that is immoral, unless you go completely technophobic.

  • 6 votes
#9.5 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:30 PM EDT
sorrelen

Well the way I see it I watch so many heterosexual couples completely abuse their children and do such awful things to them. What kind of harm comes from being raised in that type of environment? Some of them grow up and then continue the abuses to their children because it was how they were raised and don't know a difference.

Is it unfair to fear for stigmatization of kids?

That is a good question and I hope that one day in the future it won't be but in this day and age I can see that as a valid concern. Kids can be cruel but then the parents can be just as cruel. I feel that gay homes can create a loving and nurturing environment just as non gay ones can. But then you have people on both sides gay and not gay that can be abusive to children.

  • 6 votes
#9.6 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:38 PM EDT
Reply
Apocalypse Is RisenDeleted
David Mc Girr

I think you forgot the satire tag.

  • 1 vote
Reply#11 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:43 PM EDT
Rainmaker

LOL. I will wait until it is enforced. Don't pray for my death, bro...

  • 3 votes
#11.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
Reply
Live and let live please

Great article Rainmaker! You are correct. Most objection to homosexuality boils down to either "It's wrong because the Bible said so", or "I don't like it". While I can understand both of those objections, they are not sufficient reasons for making gay marriage illegal.

  • 6 votes
Reply#12 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
Rainmaker

Thanks, man. It was easy, I think, even if I had to use more words.

Your summary is good too. Works for me. But readers would've probably complained.

  • 3 votes
#12.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:32 PM EDT
Live and let live please

But readers would've probably complained.

Probably. That's why I said "most objection" and not "all". :-)

  • 2 votes
#12.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:17 PM EDT
Reply
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